When war is waged to improve the lives of a country’s people, the body count — the number of those killed as a result of the war itself — cannot help but be wrapped up in politics. No one who has been trumpeting the American presence in Iraq as a liberating force wants to hear that so far 654,965 Iraqis have died due to the fighting, sectarian and otherwise. But those were the results of an academic study released yesterday and published in the Lancet, the well-regarded British medical journal.
The Bush administration immediately discounted the findings, throwing doubt on the accuracy of the results. The president himself, at a press conference yesterday, said the report was not “credible” and that “the methodology is pretty well discredited.” Newspapers paid attention but also offered plenty of dissenting voices to counterbalance the surprisingly high number.
But should we be so skeptical? This was, after all, not a group of high school students handing out questionnaires at a Baghdad bazaar. These are scientists from a respected public health school — Johns Hopkins — conducting a study funded by another respected school — MIT — using a methodology that is not quite as contentious as President Bush let on at the press conference.
Cluster sampling, in which researchers interview families from a few representative segments of society and then extrapolate out to arrive at an estimate, is how most surveys are conducted. It’s how exit polls are run. It’s also the method by which we’ve come to the figure 400,000 for the number of people killed in Darfur, a measurement that has allowed the media to call what is happening there a genocide.
In this study, 50 clusters were randomly selected from 16 of Iraq’s Governorates, with every cluster consisting of 40 households. And out of the 1,849 households, there were 1,474 births and 629 deaths in the 40 months post-invasion. Whereas the mortality rate before the war was 5.5 per 1,000 people per year, since March 2003 it has been 13.3 per 1,000 people per year. Multiply that out for the whole country and they arrive at an average of 654,965 for the whole of Iraq, with a margin of error between 426,369 and 793,663.
There are two reasons for thinking the survey might be more accurate than has been portrayed, both of which were not mentioned much yesterday. First, the researchers were able to duplicate, with different households, the results of a survey they conducted two years ago (which was also widely disputed) that put the death toll then at 100,000. And secondly, the pre-invasion mortality rate of 5.5 per 1,000 people per year, found in both surveys, is similar to the estimate used by the CIA and the U.S. Census Bureau.
The researchers point out that organizations counting civilian deaths in Iraq — like the British-based Iraq Body Count research group (which has the number at roughly 50,000) — rely almost exclusively on media reports. But what gets left out of newspaper coverage, they argue, is anything that happens outside of Baghdad or the Kurdish north.
Here’s part of the researchers’ convincing argument (and thanks to the Plank for pointing it out):
Much violence is occurring far from the view of journalists and widely cited mechanisms for counting the dead. Most Western reporters are based in Baghdad. Even there, large-scale events tend to gain attention, not the numerous but scattered incidences of violence that also occur. […]
The large rise in sectarian violence, and the survey’s findings regarding gunshots being the principal cause of death, correlate closely. They also reflect the reports of widespread assassinations. If, for example, there were three such killings daily in each of the 75 or so urban centers of Iraq (outside of Baghdad and the Kurdish north), the total for the 40 months covered by this survey would equal more than 270,000; four such killings daily in those 75 cities would equal 360,000 in that period.
Put this way, it sounds a bit more plausible.
There seems just as much reason to trust these numbers as to doubt them. It should also be remembered that though the White House or Iraqi authorities may be unhappy with this news, it is not as if they are offering alternative figures. As the New York Times reminded us in its article, the Iraqi government recently barred the central morgue in Baghdad and the Health Ministry from releasing information about civilian deaths. The American military won’t even give numbers, preferring to stick to percentage comparisons, citing, for example, a 46 percent drop in the murder rate in Baghdad in August from July as proof that the recent crackdown has been effective.
But the really shocking thing for us here in the States, relying as we do on the media to give us as an accurate a picture of what is happening in Iraq, is that this report (even if only partly true) points to how much more comprised by the security situation Western journalists are than we even imagined. It’s true that most reporters don’t venture out of Baghdad except to embed with the military, and the time they spend out of their fortified compounds in Baghdad is seriously curtailed by the security situation. If there were extreme violence out in the provinces, it would be difficult for them to really get a handle on the realities on the ground.
So there is nothing for us then to reliably compare this report against. The function that journalists serve in any other circumstance — to verify things like the level of violence and intensity of fighting — has been completely undermined by the circumstances in Iraq. This is all the more reason to take this new study seriously as a piece of evidence the likes of which we have lost access to a long time ago.



Journalists won't venture outside of Baghdad because they are likely to get caught up in some violence. And then they question the veracity of a report that documents the very violence that they fear.
What is up with that?
Posted by iwantcleanair on Fri 13 Oct 2006 at 01:26 PM
Cluster sampling is commonly used as well in epidemiology for analysis, control, etc., and has been for a very long time, so it must have SOME redeeming qualities, don't you think? And though at first blush a range of 400k-800k may seem high, the bottom line is that even the low number is a lot of corpses...
Posted by jdmendezb on Fri 13 Oct 2006 at 04:43 PM
Check out THIS little tidbit from the Lancet's study
"By confining the survey to a cluster of houses close to one another it was felt the benign purpose of the survey would spread quickly by word of mouth among households, thus lessening risk to interviewers."
LOL!...
So... From the BEGINNING...
This "study" relied on "word of mouth" for its success!...
Now these people, who were depended upon to advance the study, are the SAME people who want to get rid of the coalition!...
OH YEAH... Now THIS is a reliable study!... (NOT!)
WHAT A CROCK OF HORSECRAP!...
I can't believe that CJR is defending this liberal crack dream...
Posted by padikiller on Sun 15 Oct 2006 at 03:01 PM
GET A LOAD OF THIS CRAP FROM THE LANCET REPORT
"We express our deepest admiration for the dedicated Iraqi data collectors who have asked not to be identified"
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FRIGGIN' KIDDING ME!
So let's get this straight...
A bunch of anonymous Iraq "data collectors" were turned loose in a country where 71% of the country wants to get rid of the coalition occupation...
And THEN they selected a cherry-picked "cluster" of households...
And THEN they told the respondents of the purpose of the survey...
And THEN they depended upon "word of mouth" to get more respondents..
RIGHT...
I have to tell you...
It is amazing to me that even CJR would have the chutzpah to stick up for this ridiculous nonsense...
Posted by padikiller on Sun 15 Oct 2006 at 03:15 PM
Padkiller, why don't you go over there and found out the real count for us? I mean, the way you talk, we just won't know until we all go find out for ourselves.
We'll be right behind you.
Posted by jdorsey on Mon 16 Oct 2006 at 02:06 AM
jdorsey wrote:
Padkiller, why don't you go over there and found out the real count for us?
padikiller responds:
Well, I couldn't do worse than THIS so-called "study" did...
Here's how this "study" worked..
1. The leaders hired Iraqi data collectors to go our and ask Iraqis how many of their relatives had died.... Were these data collectors biased?.. WHO KNOWS? This supposedly "scientific" study won't release their names... But given the fact that 71% of Iraqis oppose the occupation, it seems REAL likely that a bunch of them were indeed biased against the coalition...
2. The anonymous Iraqi data collectors cherry-picked "clusters" of households for the survey (and actually switched some of these clusters around in the middle of the survey, ostensibly for reasons of "security")
3. The anonymous Iraqi data collectors INFORMED THE REPSPONDENTS OF THE PURPOSE OF THE SURVEY BEFORE ASKING ANY QUESTIONS!
4. The anonymous Iraqi data collectors DEPENDED ON "WORD OF MOUTH" TO BRING THEM MORE RESPONDENTS!
5. The anonymous Iraqi data collectors MADE NO ATTEMPT TO VERIFY THE CLAIMS OF THE RESPONDENTS!
Now, even the wackiest liberal in McLearlyand has GOT to see that there is a more than a tad of potential for casualty inflation with this particular methodology...
Or so one would think, anyway...
Posted by padikiller on Mon 16 Oct 2006 at 12:59 PM
You KNOW this Lancet "study" is shinola when one of the Freakiest-Deakiest nutbag liberal sites on Earth shoots it to Hell..
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/press/pr14.php
Posted by padikiller on Mon 16 Oct 2006 at 03:36 PM
Padkiller,
First. Calm down.
Now to respond to your points.
1. Maybe the data collectors were biased. But then you are saying the guys who were hired and trained for days to work on this study were such good actors as to hide their biases the whole time.
Yes, that is exactly what Iraqis are doing. Trying to bias American studies. Not a likely explanation.
If your definition of bias is whether they approve of George Bush's policies, then yes, they are probably biased.
But then so is America.
2. They did not cherry pick the clusters. They RANDOMLY picked the clusters. In a three cases where the clusters were TOO dangerous, they went next door. In the end, they didn't include these datapoints in the estimates.
3. Most studies do that. Respondents have a right to know what they are participating in. It is called informed consent. It is required by the US gov't.
4. This is not true. I just re-read the study methodology to make sure that I didn't miss anything the first time.
5. The data collectors can't verify claims of injuries. But they DID VERIFY THE DEATHS. 91% of the respondents had death certificates to prove their statements.
Now IraqBodyCount.org finds the results to be incredible. But THEY FIND NOTHING WRONG WITH THE METHODOLOGY. All they do is try to guess where things went wrong in the sampling. But since the sampling was random, the best they could say was that they randomly picked the people with the most deaths. Could happen, but it is unlikely.
So the results of the study are incredible and they have a 95% chance of being true.
Posted by johnmeister on Tue 17 Oct 2006 at 05:35 PM
johnmeister wrote:
First. Calm down.
padikiller responds:
First. Deal with issues!... Then perhaps you can claim some sort of authority...
johnmeister wrote:
1. Maybe the data collectors were biased. But then you are saying the guys who were hired and trained for days to work on this study were such good actors as to hide their biases the whole time.
padikiller responds:
I hardly think the results show that the data collectors successfuly hid their biases! They claim that nearly SEVEN PERCENT OF THE ADULT POPULATION OF IRAQ has been shot in the last three years..
More importantly, a "scientific" study should identify all possible sources of error for peer review.. Such identification is impossible here because the leaders have refused to identify the primary sources of their data!..
johnmeister wrote:
2. They did not cherry pick the clusters. They RANDOMLY picked the clusters.
padikiller responds:
B A L O N E Y ! !
"As a first stage of sampling, 50 clusters were selected systematically..."
Care to try again?...
johnmeister wrote:
3.Most studies do that [sample clusters]. Respondents have a right to know what they are participating in. It is called informed consent. It is required by the US gov't.
padikiller responds:
First of all... The "US gov't" does NOT regulate studies of Iraqi citizens...
Most importantly, the "purpose" of this slanted "study" was not to collect data impartially but instead to consider the suposed "widespread concern over the scale of Iraqi deaths after the invasion by the US-led coalition in March, 2003."
johnmeister wrote:
4. This [padikiller's statement that the "study" depended on word of mouth] is not true. I just re-read the study methodology to make sure that I didn't miss anything the first time.
padikiller responds:
You obviously didn't read carefully enough....
"By confining the survey to a cluster of houses close to one another it was felt the benign purpose of the survey would spread quickly by word of mouth among households, thus lessening risk to interviewers."
johnmeister wrote:
5. The data collectors can't verify claims of injuries. But they DID VERIFY THE DEATHS. 91% of the respondents had death certificates to prove their statements.
padikiller responds:
WHOA THERE...
REWIND...
Perhaps the (potentially biased) data collectors claimed a 91% rate... But ONLY from the people they asked!...
They did NOT ask for certificates from all of the respondents!...
Posted by padikiller on Wed 18 Oct 2006 at 11:44 AM
Regarding point #1:
Given the security issues with publishing the names of the data collectors, I have no problems with that. Given the fact that they are Iraqis and living in a war zone, they probably don't agree with George Bush. But that doesn't mean they would lie about the data. Additionally, what would printing their names get in terms of elucidating their motives? Does the name Ahmed Z, Fareeh K, etc... really tell you about their willingess to fudge data?
2. I meant to say that they randomly picked within the clusters. The clusters were picked based on population. So the heavily populated areas had more clusters. Within each cluster, random sampling was used to pick the administrative units. Then within each randomly selected unit, random streets were selected.
But if you want to say that they were cherry picked, then you are saying that they were picked to exaggerate the violence. That means the whole cluster would have to be pretty violent for them to ensure that two levels of randomization would still pick the violence. That seems unlikely. And it hardly like cherry picking.
3. "The study received received ethical approval from the Committee
on Human Research of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg
School of Public Health, Baltimore, MD, USA, and the
School of Medicine, Al Mustansiriya University,
Baghdad, Iraq."
Even if the US gov't doesn't regulate studies of Iraqis. Iraqis do. And the US does regulate studies funded by US money. So you can't use US money to test foreigners. Nonetheless, funding here was by MIT and John Hopkins. They would have required informed consent.
I think they tried to collect the data impartially to study the scale of deaths.
But you think they are biased because you disagree with the research results. That's like calling a cancer researcher biased because s/he publishes that smokers get cancer.
4. You need to re-read that part you quoted. "By confining the survey to a cluster of houses close to one another it was felt the benign purpose of the survey would spread quickly by word of mouth among households, thus lessening risk to interviewers."
The purpose of this word of mouth was a security measure NOT a recruitment tool. They wanted a scared gun-toting population to see the researchers as nonthreatening. This was a safety measure. Once people were approached and told of the study, they were allowed to refuse. Additionally, the area where the word of mouth was used was randomly chosen.
5. "At the conclusion of household interviews
where deaths were reported, surveyors requested to see a
copy of any death certificate and its presence was
recorded. Where differences between the household
account and the cause mentioned on the certificate
existed, further discussions were sometimes needed to
establish the primary cause of death."
Why would they ask for death certificates from all respondents? That is ridiculous. You only ask for them from the ones who said someone died.
They only criticism I have read which makes sense (sorry Padkiller) is from the Wall Street Journal. The WSJ has a column that says 50 clusters is too small and thus could skew the data. Other sites, where the SAME methodology was employed, used more clusters. That would explain why the confidence interval is so big and why the numbers seem wrong.
Posted by johnmeister on Wed 18 Oct 2006 at 01:48 PM
johnmeister wrote:
Given the fact that they [the data collectors in the Lancet study] are Iraqis and living in a war zone, they probably don't agree with George Bush. But that doesn't mean they would lie about the data.
padikiller responds:
It sure does give them a HELL of an incentive, though, doesn't it?!...
johnmeister continued:
what would printing their names get in terms of elucidating their motives?
padikiller responds:
It would allow the study to be subject to peer review in order to verify the results and investigate potential bias...
This transparency is a fundamental requirement of the scientific method...
And it is entirely absent in this study...
johnmeister wrote:
That means the whole cluster would have to be pretty violent for them to ensure that two levels of randomization would still pick the violence.
padikiller responds
Yep... That's what it means... Or that somebody fudged the numbers...
Unfortunately, the "systematic" PPS approach isn't detailed in the study...
But one thing is absolutely clear... Something had to go terribly wrong with the methodolgy to produce such absurd results...
Seven percent of the adult male population shot to death in three years?...
GIMME A BREAK...
Not even the most liberal non-looney sites are owning this nonsense..
johnmeister wrote
Why would they ask for death certificates from all respondents? That is ridiculous. You only ask for them from the ones who said someone died.
padikiller responds:
Nice try!... But no cigar...
The relevant question here is why didn't they ask for death certificates from ALL of the households that DID report deaths!...
johnmeister wrote:
They only criticism I have read which makes sense (sorry Padkiller) is from the Wall Street Journal.
padikiller responds
Don't be sorry for me!... Be sorry instead for the deluded liberal "watchdogs" of "professional journalism" who believe that "the press should be less skeptical" of this Lancet crapola...
I wonder what kind of Orwellian trance Columbia uses to train its "watchdogs" of journalism to bewail skepticism?...
Blind faith in a ridiculous study... The CJR way!...
Posted by padikiller on Wed 18 Oct 2006 at 02:40 PM
Padkiller: It sure does give them a HELL of an incentive, though, doesn't it?!...
me: It gives them incentive. Maybe. But this criticism would invalidate any data generated with the help of Iraqis for at least this generation and next. Surely any Iraqi alive (and maybe their children) will have an incentive would bias data against America for this and all future studies.
You have to give people the benefit of the doubt. And you are asuming that the John Hopkins scientists didn't pick up on the bias. There your biases are coming thru with these assumptions.
2. You assume that someone fudged the numbers. Why assume malicious intent? Why could they not have just done a bad job with the sampling?
Your bias once again comes thru.
3. I don't think printing the name of the interviewers would have helped the peer review process. The peers reviewing this paper were probably not Iraqis but Americans or Brits. Knowing that Ahmed Z. interviewed 50 Iraqis does nothing to help that process.
The negatives of publishing the names (all interviewers and their families turn up dead) far outwieghed the positives (if any) of publishing the names.
3. Where does it say that they didn't ask for death certificates from all households that reported deaths.
From the methods section:
"Deaths were recorded
only if the decedent had lived in the household
continuously for 3 months before the event. Additional
probing was done to establish the cause and circumstances
of deaths to the extent feasible, taking into account family
sensitivities. At the conclusion of household interviews
where deaths were reported, surveyors requested to see a
copy of any death certificate and its presence was
recorded."
That clearly says that when they met a house that mentioned death, they asked for the certificates. This is what they intended to do.
Now in the results section, it says:
"Survey teams asked for death
certificates in 545 (87%) reported deaths and these were
present in 501 cases. The pattern of deaths in households
without death certificates was no different from those
with certificates.'
So in 87% of the cases, they asked for the certificates. In the remaining 13%, they didn't. This may be due to logistical issues since they are in a war zone.
But nonetheless, even if you reduce the number of estimated deaths by 13% or even 30%, it is still a staggering number of deaths. The results were not so large because of the 13% who they didn't ask for certificates.
Too few clusters is what the WSJ opines. I think that is a very good explanation for it. Not, as Padkiller suggests, that the authors and the Iraqis purposely fudged the data.
Here is WSJ article:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009108
Posted by johnmeister on Wed 18 Oct 2006 at 03:35 PM
johnmeister wrote:
"It gives them incentive. Maybe... ...You have to give people the benefit of the doubt... ...I don't think... ...The peers reviewing this paper were probably not... ...This may be due to logistical issues... ...I think that is a very good explanation for it....
padikiller responds
"Maybe" the data calloectors were biased, but so what?...
We "have" to give the "benefit of the doubt" in scientific studies to an assumption of regularity in the methodology?....
You "don't think" identifying the data collectors could aid in identifying or eliminating potential bias?...
You know who the peers who supposedly reviewed this screwy study "probably" were?....
So you think there "may be" logistical "issues" involved in the deviation from the stated methodology regarding the requests for death certificates?...
LOL!...
Now THIS is great defense of a "scientific" study!...
Sounds like Kerry's explanation of his super-secret mission to Cambodia in his Swift Boat...
Posted by padikiller on Wed 18 Oct 2006 at 04:15 PM
I am sorry, but I still work with "innocent until proven guilty." Apparently you don't. Until someone shows me that the authors fudged the data, I won't assume that they did.
padkiller:"We "have" to give the "benefit of the doubt" in scientific studies to an assumption of regularity in the methodology?...."
Me: yes, every scientist publishing data has an incentive to publish results. When they have incredible results, does that mean they fudged their results? Or is the more likely explanation that something went wrong?
Padkiller: You "don't think" identifying the data collectors could aid in identifying or eliminating potential bias?...
Me: No. They will give me 4 names. What does knowing their names tell reviewers about their willingness to lie about data? Nothing. But it tells the terrorists plenty.
One thing you need to understand. This is a survey -- a retrospective study. Retrospective study ALL are not perfect studies. You want the platonic IDEAL study. That is not this study. That is NOT ANY retrospective study. The better studies are prospective studies where you follow subjects as things happen. Maybe someone will design one where they tag 10000 people in Iraq and see how many live by the end of two years. That would be a better study (ethics notwithstanding).
Clearly, you don't want to believe the results. Your bias is evident because of your willingness to risk the lives of 4 people who collected data and gave no indication of lying. For you, the results are proof of their lies, and thus worthy of the death penalty. I am saying the results may be due to bad sampling, rather than falsified data.
I do think collecting data in a war zone will lead to logistical issues. But even if you adjust the numbers to take into account the 13% who weren't asked for the death certificates, the final numbers are still huge.
Posted by johnmeister on Wed 18 Oct 2006 at 07:55 PM
padkiller wrote:
"We "have" to give the "benefit of the doubt" in scientific studies to an assumption of regularity in the methodology?...."
johnmeister answered:
yes...
padikiller replies:
Well.. Science requires EXACTLY the OPPOSITE approach..
The scientific method is based on a skeptical analysis... Results that cannot be duplicated using the same methodology simply cannot be accepted... And all anticipated sources of error must be identified and explained to the extent possible...
You have admitted yourself that the field personnel could have been biased, yet you will not see this admission addressed anywhere in the Lancet "study".
Clearly, anonymous Iraqi data collectors who, as you have admitted, may be biased, are a crucial part of the methodology of this study... And if they were biased, obviously they were in a position to skew the data at will..
It is impossible to either replicate this "study" or to identify its potential sources of error without identifying the collectors...
The supposed "fear" of the collectors rings hollow. Certainly the terrorists in Iraq would have no problem with the results of this silly "study'... And supposedly the coalition forces already knew about them.. It's one thing to protect anonymity in the field, but there is no valid reason to do so after the fact...
Most importantly... The elephant in the room; the plain fact you keep dodging here, is that the conclusion of the study is patently absurd on its face...
It alleges that fully seven percent of the adult males in Iraq have been killed by gunfire in a couple of years...
This is simply ludicrous, anyway you look at it... Such ridiculous results conclusively prove that the methods employed in this study were either improper or violated egregiously.
Posted by padikiller on Thu 19 Oct 2006 at 07:49 AM